What is a sin for me is not a sin for you and vica-versa - Page 4 - Eternal Allegiance

FantaOrSprite · 08-20-2004, 03:06 PM

I had a hella post written on this a couple of days ago, but accidently signed of my computer, and now I can't remember what I had written. Oh well, I'll take a shot on a few things. *scratches head*

Quote:

Originally posted by FormerlyLBFG
Excluding unjust laws, what if there were no chance of getting caught breaking a law? Would you then consider it okay to break that law, for the nonreligious? If so, then what, now, becomes the definition of what is acceptable or not?

So you're basically saying that people who don't believe in sin are devoid of morals. Many people don't think in terms of what is a sin and what isn't. I know many people who were raised in religous households are shocked to hear this, but just because they don't believe in God does not make them bad people!

When you teach a small child right from wrong, most people don't try to use religion in it. A child shouldn't touch a stove because it will hurt them. He shouldn't hit people because it will hurt their feelings. Thus a child learns fundamentaly right from wrong. Most People who don't believe in God, still learn what is right or wrong from their parents. Yes, things that are against the law are usually considered wrong. But mostly common sense things.

I think its ridiculous to go around to people in the first place and say "This is a sin and this isn't" "you are a sinner". I 'm sorry but don't say that crap to me. Yes I'm a Christian ,a nd I believe in the concept of sin.But I also believe that only God gets to judge, so stop with this pointing of the fingers of "You sin repent!" Do you honestly think people are going to like you or your religion when you throw that crap in their face???!!

Also I got a little confused on the point of how God doesn't change his laws, but yet he changed it to where incest was forbidden. Isn't that changing something? I may be a simple country girl but it sounds like it.

My opinion on the bible is this-its a tool to bring us closer to God. People take it wayyyyyyyy to literally and basically use it to get that three year old tattle teller feeling of-
'YOU SINNED I'm TELLING!! You're going to HE-LLLLL!!! its annoying to see people do that, I wish it would stop.You have your beliefs, I have mine, don't try to tell me what to do or what to believe in, because I can assure you that it doesn't impress me at all.

BeBritney · 08-20-2004, 03:49 PM

All I have to say is that although I'm a Christian, I make my own beliefs. I support gay marriage and all of that, even if "the Bible says not to." I consider myself of Christian faith, but I do believe what I want as well. If that makes me bad then...

and it's funny because some of the people who are "the most" Christian are the ugliest people on the inside...

Kattie · 08-20-2004, 05:10 PM

I agree with Lea, there is a difference between the law and religion.

Things like murder and stealing are illegal because if people feel they have no recourse for justice ,then a civilization will dissolve into anarchy. The law's aim is to maintain society and keep the peace.

Religion on the other hand is a philosophical lifestyle. Whereas law doesn't require certain rituals or beliefs, religion does.

Both have things in common ,but they aren't the same thing even if they may overlap in places. If Law is unjust, then it can be readily changed in contrast to religion which is more rigid. It's not a sin to break the law if it doesn't violate your religion, but it is a sin to do something contrary to your religion even if it is lawful. However, in the eyes of the law, sin or not, if you break it you will be penalized.

When it comes to morals, i guess it is more of a question of whose morals you are talking about. If you are a Christian and you encounter an atheist, you might think that person is immoral for not believing in God. The atheist however may be a humanist and believe that he is living a perfectly moral life. It is all a matter of perspective there.

Sin though is an entirely religious concept. Sin is defined as doing something contrary to God's will or violating a religious tenet. It is not merely being imperfect. An atheist cannot violate a religious tenet he does not believe in. If i steal, i am guilty of theft and it only becomes a sin if violates my or the society's prevailing religion.

IamA-BFG · 08-20-2004, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RaInBoW_bRiTe
I had a hella post written on this a couple of days ago, but accidently signed of my computer, and now I can't remember what I had written. Oh well, I'll take a shot on a few things. *scratches head*

So you're basically saying that people who don't believe in sin are devoid of morals. Many people don't think in terms of what is a sin and what isn't. I know many people who were raised in religous households are shocked to hear this, but just because they don't believe in God does not make them bad people!
I DIDN'T SAY THAT!!! What I was asking, quite simply, was, if morality is not governed by what is or is not considered a sin, then, what is it governed by, especially if it is not governed by the law? ...and I'm not sure if it is governed by the law and, in some cases it may be, and in others not, but, in the cases not governed by the law, if it isn't governed by religion, then what IS it governed by or is there total anarchy? If you don't understand what I am saying I can't help that but I am NOT saying that people who don't believe in sin are definitively devoid of all morals.

When you teach a small child right from wrong, most people don't try to use religion in it. A child shouldn't touch a stove because it will hurt them. He shouldn't hit people because it will hurt their feelings. Thus a child learns fundamentaly right from wrong. Most People who don't believe in God, still learn what is right or wrong from their parents. Yes, things that are against the law are usually considered wrong. But mostly common sense things.
EXACTLY! That is what I am asking. What is the defining of morality for the nonreligious? Is it "Whatever causes punishment = bad. Whatever you can get away with = good"? Is it "What hurts people I care about = bad. What hurts people I don't care about but won't hurt me = neutral. What hurts people I don't care about but will hurt me = bad."? Is it "What hurts anybody = bad. What doesn't hurt anybody = good."? I don't know. I am asking. Others are doing the assuming while I am doing the asking.

I think its ridiculous to go around to people in the first place and say "This is a sin and this isn't" "you are a sinner". I 'm sorry but don't say that crap to me. Yes I'm a Christian ,a nd I believe in the concept of sin.But I also believe that only God gets to judge, so stop with this pointing of the fingers of "You sin repent!" Do you honestly think people are going to like you or your religion when you throw that crap in their face???!!
I never did that in this thread. Please stop thinking I am doing things which I am not doing. I have NOT been pointing out any people here and saying "sinner, go to hell" or "not a sinner, go to heaven". Please read my posts.

Also I got a little confused on the point of how God doesn't change his laws, but yet he changed it to where incest was forbidden. Isn't that changing something? I may be a simple country girl but it sounds like it.
This conveys to me that you have not read my posts in this very thread. Or, you have not understood them. Believe me when I say I speak exactly what I say and no more, no less, in most cases. This is different from many people. When I say something, I say what I say. That is all. And, what I have said concerning this issue, is that it is role-based. That does not change the rules. The rules are just a tad more complicated is all.

My opinion on the bible is this-its a tool to bring us closer to God. People take it wayyyyyyyy to literally and basically use it to get that three year old tattle teller feeling of-
'YOU SINNED I'm TELLING!! You're going to HE-LLLLL!!! its annoying to see people do that, I wish it would stop.You have your beliefs, I have mine, don't try to tell me what to do or what to believe in, because I can assure you that it doesn't impress me at all.
And that is your opinion. That is fine...you have your beliefs and I have mine. Besides, read above point--it applies here too.

Also, I seek to impress no one. If you are or are not impressed with me, great or not great--whatever, it doesn't matter. Rather than seeking to impress people, I strive to attain truth and justice. If that doesn't make me popular, oh well. I don't care.

IamA-BFG · 08-20-2004, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kat
I agree with Lea, there is a difference between the law and religion.

Things like murder and stealing are illegal because if people feel they have no recourse for justice ,then a civilization will dissolve into anarchy. The law's aim is to maintain society and keep the peace.

Religion on the other hand is a philosophical lifestyle. Whereas law doesn't require certain rituals or beliefs, religion does.

Both have things in common ,but they aren't the same thing even if they may overlap in places. If Law is unjust, then it can be readily changed in contrast to religion which is more rigid. It's not a sin to break the law if it doesn't violate your religion, but it is a sin to do something contrary to your religion even if it is lawful. However, in the eyes of the law, sin or not, if you break it you will be penalized.

When it comes to morals, i guess it is more of a question of whose morals you are talking about. If you are a Christian and you encounter an atheist, you might think that person is immoral for not believing in God. The atheist however may be a humanist and believe that he is living a perfectly moral life. It is all a matter of perspective there.

Sin though is an entirely religious concept. Sin is defined as doing something contrary to God's will or violating a religious tenet. It is not merely being imperfect. An atheist cannot violate a religious tenet he does not believe in. If i steal, i am guilty of theft and it only becomes a sin if violates my or the society's prevailing religion.

There is a difference between law and religion, yes. However, that is not of my concern here. I am not asking that. What I am asking, quite simply, is, if the nonreligious are not governed by what is or is not a sin then what are the governed by? ...and for the ones not governed by the law, then what are THEY governed by?

Well, the law's aim should be to maintain society and keep the peace. I, however, seem to think the law's aim is to keep the ones in power in power and the ones subdued subdued, while itself being above the law.

If law is unjust, yes, it can be changed, however, the issue here is perhaps a subtle one. The issue is, during the time when the unjust law is not changed, and, supposing there is an individual of no religion then, for that individual, would breaking that law constitute a "bad thing" in his or her mind? If it would not, then, what is the basis of morality if it is neither the law nor religion for that individual or is that person amoral or immoral?

FantaOrSprite · 08-21-2004, 08:30 AM

Dan-Not all of my post was aimed at you, so don't feel upset or think I was pointing a finger at you in it. Most of it was meant. in general terms, usually when I talk about religion its done in generalities.

As for your question about what governs an atheist, if not God, I can't really answer that as I've never NOT had God in my life. I would assume, that the way you are raised by your parents has something to do with it. You can learn right from wrong without religion, as I said before...Most atheists I know still manage to have empathy, empathy helps you realize how others might feel due to a consequence of your action, and small children do not have empathy for others (usually not until age 4 or maybe later do they develop it, thats one of the main goals of being a parent, without empathy you would be a very spoiled person)..

As you know, I'm religous, but I don't necessarily think of things in terms of what GOD thinks is wrong or right. If I did that I would believe that all homosexuals are going to hell, which I don't. I would imagine atheists think somewhat the same as me. :shrugs:

I feel as if I'm talking in circles on this subject because I'm not quite sure what I'm trying to convey, but hopefully you get a bit of the message.

YesJess · 08-21-2004, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RaInBoW_bRiTe
As you know, I'm religous, but I don't necessarily think of things in terms of what GOD thinks is wrong or right.

That being said to you consider yourself a Christian?

FantaOrSprite · 08-21-2004, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jess
That being said to you consider yourself a Christian?

Yes I do. What I meant was that when thinking about doing something or saying something I don't think in my head "What would Jesus do " or something of the sort. If thinking of an insult or something I think "What would this person feel if I said this?" God doesn't pop in my head everytime I make a decision.

I consider myself a Christian yes, Because I believe in Jesus and God, according to the Bible accepting Jesus as your personal savior makes you a Christian and saved, I see nothing in there about thinking about God everytime you make a choice.

YesJess · 08-21-2004, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RaInBoW_bRiTe
I see nothing in there about thinking about God everytime you make a choice.

The Bible says to try and be more like Jesus in your choices.

I agree, in everything I do, I don't think-- "OMG what would Jesus do?!?"... but I do try to live my life as Jesus would want me too.

JammieJam · 08-21-2004, 09:07 PM

we are are with sins, even if its not in "our" vocabulary or if we don't "believe" it - but te fact is -- it exists - and in saying that, like Monrapias said, Forgiveness exists.

The book of Romans gives us a beautiful interpretation.

We'll Talk some more.