GrgotSlave

I just thought this would be interesting to post and start some dialogue on it. My intention is to get different views on this, and if it includes criticism, then it's all good. I just want to see what people have to say about this because it's pretty darn interesting.

"Those who follow the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own scripture—in the Law and the Gospel—For he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil…(Qur’an 7: 157)



BIBLICAL PROPHECIES ABOUT THE ADVENT OF MUHAMMAD

Abraham is widely regarded as the Patriarch of monotheism and the common father of the Jews, Christians and Muslims. Through His second son, Isaac, came all Israelite prophets including such towering figures as Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus. May peace and blessings be upon them all. The advent of these great prophets was in partial fulfillment of God's promises to bless the nations of earth through the descendents of Abraham (Genesis12:2-3).Such fulfillment is wholeheartedly accepted by Muslims whose faith considers the belief in and respect of all prophets an article of faith.



BLESSINGS OF ISHMAEL AND ISAAC

Was the first born son of Abraham (Ishmael) and his descendants included in God's covenant and promise? A few verses from the Bible may help shed some light on this question;

1) Genesis 12:2-3 speaks of God's promise to Abraham and his descendants before any child was born to him.

2) Genesis 17:4 reiterates God's promise after the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac.

3) In Genesis, ch. 21. Isaac is specifically blessed but Ishmael was also specifically blessed and promised by God to become "a great nation" especially in Genesis 21:13, 18.

4) According to Deuteronomy 21:15-17 the traditional rights and privileges of the first born son are not to be affected by the social status of his mother (being a "free" woman such as Sarah, Isaac's mother, or a "Bondwoman" such as Hagar, Ishmael's mother). This is only consistent with the moral and humanitarian principles of all revealed faiths.

5) The full legitimacy of Ishmael as Abraham's son and "seed" and the full legitimacy of his mother, Hagar, as Abraham's wife are clearly stated in Genesis 21:13 and 16:3. After Jesus, the last Israelite messenger and prophet, it was time that God's promise to bless Ishmael and his descendants be fulfilled. Less than 600 years after Jesus, came the last messenger of God, Muhammad, from the progeny of Abraham through Ishmael. God's blessing of both of the main branches of Abraham's family tree was now fullfilled. But are there additional corroborating evidence that the Bible did in fact foretell the advent of prophet Muhammad?



MUHAMMAD: The Prophet Like Unto Moses?

Long time after Abraham, God's promise to send the long-awaited Messenger was repeated this time in Moses' words.
In Deuteronomy 18:18, Moses spoke of the prophet to be sent by God who is:

1) From among the Israelite's "brethren", a reference to their Ishmaelite cousins as Ishmael was the other son of Abraham who was explicitly promised to become a "great nation".

2) A prophet like unto Moses. There were hardly any two prophets ,who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad. Both were given comprehensive law code of life, both encountered their enemies and were victors in miraculous ways, both were accepted as prophets/statesmen and both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlooks not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well (e.g. the natural birth, family life and death of Moses and Muhammad but not of Jesus, who was regarded by His followers as the Son of God and not exclusively a messenger of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslim belief Jesus was).



THE AWAITED PROPHET WAS TO COME FROM ARABIA

Deuteronomy 33:1-2 combines references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran. According to Genesis 21:21, the wilderness of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled (i.e. Arabia, specifically Mecca).

Indeed the King James version of the Bible mentions the pilgrims passing through the valley of Ba'ca (another name of Mecca) in Psalms 84:4-6.

Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who "shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth." Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke'dar. Who is Ke'dar? According to Genesis 25:13, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.


There's more but I didn't want to make a big thread because it makes people not want to read.

CrAZyBeAuTiFuL4

YAY, I love threads like this!!!

As for the question, in the Genesis story, its definitely set up that there will be two different nations of God through Abraham. That promise is actually first made to Hagar in Genesis 16:10 "The LORD also said to her 'I will so greatly multiply your offspring that they cannot be counted for multitude"

Also, in Genesis 17:5-8 God promises to Abraham that a covenant will be established between them and the offspring of Abraham for generations. This doesn't speciffically name either Ishmael or Isaac but says in a general term. And in Genesis 21:12-13 God tells Abraham that all offspring through Isaac shall be named after him [Abraham] but he goes on to say "as for the son of the slave woman, I will make a nation of him also, because he is your offspring". Two nations, Two prophets. Jesus and Muhammad.

GrgotSlave

Thanks for replying. Alot of Christians aren't able to respond to this, which I hate because then I can't get into a dialogue where both of us can learn. I'm always open to any religion but Islam has gained my hold thusfar beause it has got so much for it. When I talk to Christians about this, they just say, "Well, I don't know which Bible you're getting all of this information from. It's unrelibale so I don't think your information is valid or correct." So i'm just like, 'huh?" I don't know what to say to that beause I dont' say things like this to criticize, I bring this up to learn and expand my mind and open my heart to new things.

Can you elaborate on the second one? That's VERY interesting to me. The one thing that I like about the Qur'an is that it says that it's a continuation of the other holy books such as the Torah, Bible, Psalms of David etc... So I try to follow that and look into the Bible. That's why Islam and Christianity have so much in common....they have similar, very similar roots.

Btw, did you ever get my email in response to your PM?

CrAZyBeAuTiFuL4

I did get your emailed response, thank you I'll reply to this in a while, gotta run to class right now!

Errick

There is a website that comes from a searching point of view. Though, the man who wrote it is a Bible scholar, he looks at both sides of things. Here is the link to the rest of the article. But this is the part that interested me the most. And gives opposition to what is written in your first post. That's what you wanted, correct?
__________________________________________________ __
The Test of Muhammad as The Prophet Like unto Moses

Using the six criteria of Moses being a special prophet, let?s test the Muslims claim that Muhammad is the prophet like Moses.

1). Muhammad was not a Jew. Muhammad is automatically eliminated from being the prophet like Moses because he was not a descendant from one of the 12 tribes of Israel. However, Islam claims that the brethren of Deuteronomy 18 are not the children of Israel. Islam claims that the brethren are not Jews, but they are the Arab descendants of Abraham through Ishmael. They claim the brethren means related to the Jews. This relationship to the Jews is the brethren of Deuteronomy 18:18 and not someone from the 12 tribes of Israel. Islam claims this brethren then of Deuteronomy 18:18 would be the descendants of Abraham through his son Ishmael.

The Bible is clear that the brethren are the 12 tribes of Israel. However, lets examine the Muslim claim that the brethren are the descendants from Ishmael, and therefore Muhammad is the Prophet like Moses.

When studying the Bible, there is little said about the descendants of Ishmael. God promises to bless Ishmael with 12 sons, and he will become a great nation. The Bible then lists the 12 sons of Ishmael. After listing these 12 sons, there is no more continuation of Ishmael?s genealogy. It simply ends with the 12 sons. The genealogy of Ishmael has very little significance in the Bible. Jacob?s genealogy is the one which the Bible goes into great detail. The Scriptures about Ishmael?s genealogy follow:

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Genesis 25:12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham: (13) And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, (14) And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, (15) Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:

1 Chronicles 1:29 These are their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebaioth; then Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, (30) Mishma, and Dumah, Massa, Hadad, and Tema, (31) Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These are the sons of Ishmael.

The Koran contains no genealogy at all. Islam had no prophets prior to Muhammad like the Bible?s who maintained the Prophet like unto Moses? genealogy. Islam can make absolutely no connection between Muhammad and Ishmael. There is a 2600 year genealogical gap between Ishmael and Muhammad, with no connection.

The Bible even shows that at the time of Jeremiah, 600 BC, there was a great mixture of people in Arabia. This was 1200 years before Muhammad. It is very possible that Muhammad could be a descendant of the ?mingled people? as they are described in the Bible and not Ishamael. The verse to show this follows:

Jeremiah 25:24 And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert,

The context of Deuteronomy 18 are the children of Israel. But even if one was to think it could possibly be the descendants of Ishmael, the Koran offers no proof whatsoever this could be Muhammad. The Koran is void of genealogy and therefore no link can be established between the two. Islam has no prophets that kept the genealogy to show this link. Islam cannot produce the genealogical records prior to Muhammad that were kept by recognized prophets of God so there can be no doubt to the authenticity. There are no such records and there are no such prophets. Prior to Muhammad, Islam has to rely on the Bible for prophets. The Bible?s prophets are silent about Ishmael?s genealogy while they kept the genealogy leading up to the Lord Jesus.

The Koran offers no proof that Muhammad can be the brethren while the Bible establishes a direct genealogical link from Abraham to the Lord Jesus. The Bible offers all the proof and the Koran has nothing. This requirement alone totally eliminates Muhammad as the Prophet like unto Moses.

2). God spoke directly with Moses. Muhammad fails because the Koran shows he received his message from an angel.

Sura 77.5 Then I swear by the angels who bring down the revelation

Sura 2.97 Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers

3). The Koran never reported that Muhammad was literally in the direct presence of God.

4). Muhammad never brought in a blood covenant with God, but his message went directly against the revealed word of God. Muhammad denied the basis for the New Testament covenant which is the death of the Lord Jesus on the cross.

Sura 4.157 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa (Jesus) son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so

5). The Koran reports no miracles of Muhammad. The Koran even says that Muhammad was not like Moses.

Sura 28.48 But (now) when the truth has come to them from Us, they say: Why is he not given the like of what was given to Musa? What! did they not disbelieve in what Musa was given before? They say: Two magicians backing up each other; and they say: Surely we are unbelievers in all. (49) Say: Then bring some (other) book from Allah which is a better guide than both of them, (that) I may follow it, if you are truthful.

6). Muhammad made no prophecies in the Koran. The Muslims call Sura 30 the Great Prophecy: This Sura is often used as proof Muhammad is a prophet.

Sura 30.2 The Romans are vanquished, (3) In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome, (4) Within a few years. Allah's is the command before and after; and on that day the believers shall rejoice,

Sura 30 is not a valid prophecy: The Romans, who were the Byzantines, were always at war. A near land is not identified. The location to judge the near land is not identified in the Koran. Is it Jerusalem, Mecca, or Medina etc? What is a few years? No date is given for this prophecy so within a few years can be identified. The fulfillment is not recorded in the Koran. It is impossible to verify that Sura 30:2-4 is a valid prophecy.

Muhammad fails the test of prophet in general and specifically he is not the prophet like unto Moses. Therefore his message as written in the Koran is to be totally rejected. He cannot be classified as a prophet because he made no prophecy which could be tested. The Muslim?s claim that Muhammad is the seal of the prophets has no authority as there is no proof in the Koran that Muhammad was a true prophet of God.
____________________________________________

I come in a discussive standpoint. I found the part about Ishmael being extremely important.

GrgotSlave

Thanks for replying. You don't have to explain yourself, I know you don't come with a combative standpoint, we are all here to learn. First, I must tell you why people believe that Mohammad (peace be upon him) is a Prophet.

"The Great Prophecy" is nothing noted by Muslims because I, nor any scholar I know, has every heard or said that. Not only that, but scientific facts in the Qur’an are there as well. Could this be something that came from his own mind? Any Qur'anic ayah (verse) that deals with science has been proven to be true. The Qur'an gives the step by step formation of a baby in the mothers womb, the Qur'an tells about the expansion of the universe, the creation of the Earth etc... All of which can be seen on this site:

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

There is a great deal of clear evidence for the one who seeks to find out the truth about the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), including the following:

-Allah chose him even though he had grown up as an orphan and was illiterate, knowing neither how to read or write. All good qualities and virtues were perfected in him, to the point of ultimate perfection. All these good qualities were combined and firmly established in him, something which no one else can attain except the Prophets whom Allah protected and guided. This combination of perfect qualities is one of the greatest proofs of the truth of his Prophethood (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

-The revelation of Allah was bestowed upon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The Angel of Revelation, Jibreel (Gabriel), who is recognized by all the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], came to him, and when he received revelation, there were unusual effects on him that indicated the intensity of the effort involved in receiving the Message of Allah from Jibreel, upon whom be peace. His Companions witnessed this when he received Revelation, and they believed that the revelation was something that came from an outside source and was beyond his control; it came to him from (Allah), the Wise and Praiseworthy.

- Allah supported the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) with physical miracles, with which he challenged his people. Among the most important of these were the splitting of the moon and the Night Journey to Bayt al-Maqdis (Jerusalem). They were unable to match these miracles, and so they were a decisive, divine testimony to the truth of his Prophethood (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

- Allah supported him with miracles and evidence for people of reason and understanding, the greatest of which was the Qur’an. This was the greatest sign, which contains in its pages miracles of both style and content, which all of mankind cannot match or imitate, even if they gather together for that purpose. This is clear from the statements of the most eloquent of the Arabs, who were completely unable to match it. The Qur’an was – and centuries later still is, praise be to Allah – an eternal miracle as is evident in its brilliant style, its information about the Unseen, its fulfillment of the promises of Allah, the superiority of its laws, and the fact that its rulings are appropriate for every time and place – in addition to the fact that it has such a moving impact on people’s hearts.

- The Qur’an refers to the signs and proofs surrounding the person of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), which testify to his truthfulness. For example, he was free of sin and trivial spitefulness; he grew up illiterate in the Arabian Peninsula, and did not receive any religious knowledge from beyond its borders, nor did he spend time acquiring any religious knowledge. When he reached the age of forty, he brought divine knowledge that none of the earlier or later generations could produce. He also received special protection and care from Allah, which kept him safe at times of crisis; if it were not for this protection he would most certainly have been doomed to destruction. None of this could have happened except to one who was truly sent from Allah.

- His coming was foretold in the Tawraat (Torah) and Injeel (Gospel), and some of the People of the Book saw that these prophecies applied in totality to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), which led them to embrace Islam. There are still passages in the Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments, in the versions that are accepted by the People of the Book, that clearly refer to the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) – for example in the Gospel of Barnabas, which is considered by Christians to be the most authentic Gospel.

- The Message of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was not unique to him, but was in nature and content similar to the message brought by other Messengers before him. Allah had sent Prophets and Messengers, such as Moosa (Moses), ‘Eesa (Jesus) and others, to the Children of Israel, and great numbers had believed in them and borne witness to the truth of their Books, which were similar in general terms to the message brought by the Qur’an. This was eloquent testimony to the truth of the Message with which he was sent, especially as it belonged to the same type of Message to whose truth they had testified.

- When Allah sent Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) with the same Message as the Prophets who had come before him, the Qur’an came to confirm their Books and their Prophethood, and to call people to believe in them. So when the People of the Book disbelieved in him and his Book, it meant that they were disbelieving in their own Books and Messengers. As the Qur’an contained the same principles as their books, and confirmed them, this meant that it was the least likely to be fabricated or to have come from a source other than Allah, because all of them came from Allah, may He be exalted.

In summary, then, the proof of truthfulness is quite clear in this case. The evidence is there both in (historical) reports and on the grounds of common sense. This will cure the ill (i.e., the one who has doubts) and quench the thirst (of the one who longs for knowledge), as Allah says:

“… Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a Light (prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)) and a plain Book (the Qur’an), wherewith Allah guides all those who seek His Good Pleasure to ways of peace, and He brings them out of darkness by His Will unto light, and guides them to a Straight Way” [al-Ma’idah 5:15-16].

“And We have not sent down the Book (the Qur’an) to you (O Muhammad), except that you may explain clearly unto them those things in which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a folk who believe” [al-Nahl 16:64]

“Allah revealed to His messenger the Qur’an by which to guide people And We have not sent you (O Muhammad) except as a giver of glad tidings and a Warner to all mankind, but most of men know not” [Saba’ 34:28]

GrgotSlave

If i'm not mistaken, the verse from the Bible doesn't say that the Prophet will speak directly to God, but The Prophet will directly speak the word of God. Secondly, as far as Miracles go, you're biblical scholar has got it wrong. The Qur'an does speak of physical miracles performed by The Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him). For example, there are many narrations given by the companions of The Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) saying how he split the moon, In the Qur'an, Allah says:

"The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder" [Qur'an 54:1]

Nonetheless, Muslims consider the Holy Qur'an to be one of the greatest miracles of all. The Holy Qur'an is the living miracle bestowed by Allah upon Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and this, Allah's Book, was revealed to him through the Angel Gabriel. Today 1400 years have passed and nobody has been able to change a single letter or produce its imitation, as it is said in the Qur'an:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

Also, the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) has said,""Before me, every Prophet was given a miracle and they practised it during their lifetime: e.g., 'Iesa (Jesus) used to cure the sick and make the dead alive, etc., Musa (Moses) was given the stick etc., and I have been given the permanent miracle of the Qur'an till the Hour is established, so I hope that my followers will be more in number than all the other Messengers' as my miracle will last till the Day of Resurrection, and it is a Glorious Book; when anyone reads it, even if he is a pagan, etc., he is convinced that it is produced by none but by the Creator of the heavens and the earth."

Also, there are many other miracles which are mentioned that I won't talk about because I dont' want this reply to be too long.

I find this argument void because of some reasons. Number one, the Bible says the the awaited Prophet to come will be from the descendants of Ishmael. Who were the descendants of Ishmael? The Arabs. It never said the awaited Prophet to come will be the direct descendant. Even the geneology given in the Bible proves this statement. Who was the next Prophet after Jesus (peace be upon him)? Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) who was an Arab. He was an Arab and the descendants of Ishmael were Arab. Therefore it connects the link that he was the Prophet unto like Moses (peace be upon him).

Therefore, I find all of the arguments given by your biblical scholar to be void.

GrgotSlave

No one's interested in this? I find that really weird. I thought this would spark some debate and be an interesting discussion.