Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince -Discussion Thread - Page 3 - Eternal Allegiance

fairandcold · 08-06-2005, 10:46 AM

Spoiler!

This is going to be a long post, so bare with me. ^^

I think Snape had a crush on Lily and HBP ties them together even more than ever.

I'm convinced that Lily's skill will be crucial at some point. We've been clubbered over the head with it, just like we've been clubbered with "Harry has his mother's eyes." I wouldn't be surprised if Snape's hatred for Harry stems not just from his hatred for James, but also perhaps from being second best to Lily. I can definitely accept that Snape is a very skilled potion brewer, I.e. he can follow recipes to the letter. But was he also creative as well, or was Lily the only one?

Another point I want to make is this:
I think, had Snape hated Lily, he would have made at least some disparaging remark about her to Harry within the last 6 years. That he has focused exclusively on Harry's father, indicates that Snape's relationship to Lily was probably something other than the standard Snape vs. Potter crowd emnity.

The (Potions) book could very well have been a collaboration. If we take the hints that Snape felt something other than hatred for Lily, the seeds of that friendship/love/whatever could be found in that potions class, with the two geniuses working together under the tutelage of Slughorn, to the extent that they not only excelled, they actually rewrote the textbook.

Considering what Harry says about the work being a male's and what Hermione says about the handwriting being a female's, plus the fact that Harry's seen Snape's writing before, I think there is a good chance that Snape and Lily were Potions partners, with Lily acting as verbatim-note-keeper (though using Snape's book, for whatever reason).

There does seem to be increasing evidence that they were friendly:

1. She's surprised when Snape calls her a mudblood -- presumably he does so mainly because he's a tad angry at the time.

2. JK's vagueness about "that awful boy"'s identity.

3. Snape joining Dumbledore out of remorse for James's death? Don't think so. But out of remorse for Lily's death is another matter -- and a possibility that Harry has conveniently skipped over. And if Snape did have some unrequited love for Lily, I can understand why Dumbledore wouldn't want to tell Harry.

4. Voldemort gives Lily the chance to stand aside. Obviously not out of the goodness of his heart, but possibly because Snape asked him to, and he didn't want to lose Snape's loyalty.

5. There seems to be a focus on what Slughorn said about Lily's Potions abilities, though we have never heard about such abilities in other books. It's all about Lily and Charms. And Slughorn sees so many similarities between Lily and Harry in Potions, the way the potions and mixed, inventiveness, etc.

And Snape gave her that book. Snape was brilliant in Potions, he probably memorized the shortcuts that he had come up with over the years (because he couldn't have written all those directions over the course of one year - I see it as a culmination of lots of lonly hours of extra work over the years.)

Because Snape has some sort of feelings (affection? gratitude?) towards Lily.

6. Lily wasn't always horrible towards Snape (see Pensive scene), and while she might not have been buddy-buddy (she gives as good as she takes), maybe that was enough for feelings to develop towards her. Or maybe he always felt something for her, it's hard to say becaues we don't have a lot to go on.

But looking at Snape's background, and his proclamation of being a half-blood with his HBP title, he probably didn't experience much warmness in relationships with family or friends. In his dark arts circle he might have been respected for his abilities, but if everyone knew he was a half-blood he probably wasn't up there with the Blacks. Notice how only Lily come to his aid in the Pensive scene? No dark arts people help him. Were there any around? Who knows. Maybe the little warmth that Lily showed him was enough for someone who experienced nothing before.

7. Then there's this from a 1999 JK interview:

QUOTE
One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.
JKR: (JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.

The wording gets to me. Snape falling love with someone is a horrible idea for the other person. Because Snape loved Lily, and he killed her husband.

Here's my theory in a nut shell: Snape loved Lily and hated James. Solution? Get rid of James, and Harry too to be on the safe side. Tell Voldie about the prophecy. Remember how Voldemort was willing to let Lily go? He called her a silly girl, dismissing her as no threat, while everyone else says that Lily was a powerful witch. Voldie got some bad intel from someone - Snape.

Snape was whispering in Voldie's ear how useless Lily was, she wasn't a threat, no need to kill her. Or he made some sort of deal with Voldie to spare Lily. Who knows. But Voldie totally dismissed Lily, maybe because she was Muggle-born, maybe because Snape told him she wasn't a threat. Whatever the reason, he was willing to spare her (or so he says - he is a dirty liar, but that's what we have to go on).

When Voldie killed James and Lily, Snape went to Dumbledore. And Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry that Snape loved his mother and was so sorry he caused her death that he gave up the dark side. Harry would have gone insane.

Another theory I have if that one doesn't pan out is this:

Perhaps they came to be friends. Not real friends, like Harry and Hermione, but more like two smart people who admired each other's skills.

From what we know of Snape as a teenager, he seems the textbook portrait of the kid who ends up going on a killing spree. He's an oddball who kills flies for fun, he has no friends that we ever see (though Sirius said in GoF he used to hang around with a certain group, but apparently not close enough that they'd defend him in the Pensieve scene), he's ridiculed at school (not just the Pensieve scene, but his memory of the girl laughing b/c he cannot ride a broom), he seems to have an abusive father, he's careless to the point of yuckiness with his personal appearance. He seems to carry a huge chip on his shoulder, and probably not just against the Marauders. Witness his insistence that he is half-Prince - very similar to Voldemort's disdain of his Muggle father. Snape is also probably poor, since he uses his mom's old textbook. I think he resents his whole lot in life.

But then, there's Lily, who can see something good in everyone (I'm going by Kloves' line here, which I think is based on JK's hints). She looks beyond the surface and sees a scholar. Snape is intelligent and talented. They share a common passion - Potions. Perhaps she gives him honest praise. Perhaps she asks for his opinions, and draws him out into academic discussions. And as a plus, she seems to despise Potter and his cronies.

Snape would have been grouchy at first, unwilling to give the time of day to a Mudblood. But beyond his prejudices, he IS a scholar, so he cannot help but grudgingly admire Lily in the end. Talk to her. Maybe even ask her advice about going out with girls (did he fancy Narcissa?). Maybe after the werewolf incident, Prefect!Lily finds out and gives Sirius the dress-down of his life. Snape is jubilant - Lily is on his side. She see the Marauders for the arrogant bullies they are.

But then the unthinkable happens: Lily starts dating James. In Snape's black-and-white world, she has betrayed him. Voldemort is right, after all - Mudbloods are filthy and deserve to die. So he joins the DEs with a vengeance.

But the scholar in him must have revolted at the atrocities he has to witness. He must have missed his academic pursuits, his debates with Lily. Perhaps Lily continues trying to keep in touch - Christmas gifts, birthday wishes aso. She reminds him of a time when he wasn't mired in darkness.

And then he reports the Prophecy to Voldemort, and finds out it's Lily who's pregnant, and likely to be targeted. He doesn't want her to die, so he warns Dumbledore to tell the Potters. For extra insurance, he also asks Voldemort to spare her, but doesn't tell him she's his friend. He probably tells Voldemort something that he would readily accept, such as she is his worst enemy's wife, and taking her would be the best revenge. You'll note that Voldemort tells Lily to stand aside, not to go away. He would probably have taken her prisoner. But Lily refuses, and gives her life for her son. So Snape's plan backfires.

And 10 years later, there's the little boy in whose place Lily died. He already hates him for that. But Harry looks like James. He has no talent in Potions. There's nothing of Lily in him that Snape can see, except the eyes - which are probably the worst reminder of his own crime. So he makes Harry's life hell, and tries to get him expelled. And yet... in some other ways, he looks out for Harry. Perhaps he made an Unbreakable Vow (or just a solemn promise) to Dumbledore, when he took him back, that he would atone for his crime against Lily by keeping her son alive.

One piece of evidence I noted about the HBP potions (I thought at the time supported Hermione's insistance was a girl) was the finishing touch of peppermint (or whatever it was) that was mentioned. Seemed both Muggle-ish and girlish.

Okay, I'm done now, what do you guys think?

Birgerhar · 08-07-2005, 07:54 AM

Spoiler!

Snape might have had a thing for Lily. I agree. But I dont think revenge was the reason behind Sanpe being present at the prophecy telling. I have a strange suspiscion that Dumbledore placed him there on purpose. Or lured him there and Snape did unknowingly it was part of Dumbledore's plan all along. For what? I have no clue. After seeing PoA the movie I have a suspiscion that Lupin had the hots for Lily as well. And JK herself said she was surprised at how many forshadowing things were in the movie that she didn't talk to Alfonso about. hmmm...

toefur · 08-07-2005, 08:25 PM

I really don't understand how people can get into that crap, I think it's a waste of time and money. Why bother? It's crap.

Birgerhar · 08-07-2005, 09:28 PM

[rant]Please get out of here before I hit you. Who are you to fucking judge what we like or not? It's our life, why don't you get one and scram![/rant]

there. now breathe in. breathe out.

fairandcold · 08-07-2005, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toefur
I really don't understand how people can get into that crap, I think it's a waste of time and money. Why bother? It's crap.

Then why waste your time by posting in this thread?

08-08-2005, 08:27 AM

fairandcold .. wow. i never would've thought of that. WOW.

fairandcold · 08-08-2005, 09:34 AM

Makes sense doesn't it? =O

Matuk · 08-09-2005, 06:49 PM

Spoiler!

Maybe Dumbledore knew that he was a Horcrux himself, so he planned a very complicated way of dying and so destoying the horcrux ??.....maybe not, but then again who thought he would die in this book..??

Leonida · 08-16-2005, 12:56 PM

OK I haven't read any thing in this thread as I've only just finished the book (got it earlier this week

) Anyway

Spoiler!

I don't think Snape is evil, it seems to simple somehow. I think killing Dumbledore had to be done

(even if it was really sad and I cried for ages ) for harry to be able to get rid of Voldemort

and RAB I think is sirius's brother (remember the locket they found at his house that wouldn't open?)

if all this has been said i apologise am going to read it through now)

Starshine · 08-18-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toefur
[b]I really don't understand how people can get into that crap, I think it's a waste of time and money. Why bother? It's crap.

ahem..

Quote:

Originally posted by Starshine
I thought I'd start this thread, because the other thread about the cover of the book was trashed by all who posted in it. :P I thought maybe we could start fresh and have -FANS- of the book dicuss how they feel.